Mike's Personal Fight With Anti-Depressants

It may surprise some of my customers, but when I get a request for help on getting off some psychiatric drug, like Prozac, I give them very strong advice -- that I NEVER advise people HOW to get off Prozac.

It tell them all that they must go back to the doctor who prescribed it and demand that he help them get off. If he won't do that, then they must find some other medical doctor who will help them get off Prozac.

If they find such a doctor, but he doesn't know how to help them, only then will I give some advice -- to the doctor.

If someone is OFF Prozac, but still suffering the terrible consequences of using it, I will help THAT person directly.

I recently got a request for just that type of help, from Mike, and his permission to post his story on my web page.

The background of this is that someone who was ON an anti-depressant asked me for medical advice (which I never give) on how to get off the drug, and another also taking an anti-depressant asked if my vitamins would conflict with her antidepressant.

I told both of them my standard story -- that they must seek medical help to get off these terrible drugs and that in the mean time I refused to sell them any of my vitamins.

These two ladies apparently knew one another, and regularly share their victim status on some newsgroup. In any event, one or more of these people took such offense to my refusal to sell vitamins to them that they threatened to publish information (which, of course, was false) about me, saying that I gave medical advice, etc.

Well, Mike happened to be a victim of an anti-depressant, and had been off of it for some years, but saw this posting of the attack on me. He wrote to thank me for my position, and described his own experience with the drug.

I've published his exact message below (blue print). I wrote back and asked if I could publish his story. I also offered to help him recover from the effects of his drug experience. My message to him is also published below.

You might be interested in following this exchange. If you are interested, you can click on Mike's name, below, to send him a letter, or ask him if what is published here is what he actually wrote!

To Karl Loren

Hello, someone is posting information about your company on the web
( news:alt.support.depression.medication ). They are chastising you for
our views on antidepressants so I went to your page to get the scoop. I
agree that what you say is the truth.

I took Effexor for a year to deal with emotional problems. I've been off
for three years now, but am still like a zombie.

I have no emotions, no feelings, no drives, nothing. I can't even hear music as music or distinguish between good or bad in taste and smell. I literally am the walking dead. My family and friends are confused by what I've been through and I doubt they believe me.

Doctors dismiss it as psychosomatic, but I know I have practically been murdered (my soul is gone). I have tried all sorts of things to try to get better, but I am at the point where I just lay and wait to die and I am only 33 years old. I was a licensed mechanical engineer when I started the medication and now I am disabled and my only wish is to expose the people who did this to me which doesn't seem likely. I really have given up on getting better. Keep spreading the truth!

Mike

It's ironic!

Some time ago I adopted the policy of refusing to sell my vitamins to anyone who uses anti-depressants. I have also collected more information about the evils of the Lilly drug company than any other web page.

So, when one of those people threatened to post her upset on that news post, I urged her to go right ahead because I couldn't lose any business over it, and now, you see, here you come.

Perhaps not as a customer, but certainly a far better prospect than anyone on Prozac!!

I don't know if you have seen what I have sent out to some of them, but I paste it in below, and invite your continued dialogue. Mike, I think I can help you. Write back and let's see what we can do to help you get over this. No charge.

May I quote your message, without your name as you may wish, on one of my web pages? I'll still be glad to help, even without that posting.

Surely you can post my story. Anything that helps spread the news is greatly appreciated. You can attach my email address also if you like.

I would also like to accept your offer for help. I look forward to hearing from you.

I have a series of suggestions, but let me start with the easiest for you to start.

Before that, if necessary, I'll finally get to a purification program that would probably handle the residue of drugs in your system.

I strongly suggest at least one gallon, taken in small swallows, of perhaps 2 or 3 ounces at a time.

Most psychiatric drugs are locked up in your tissues -- you need to flush them out. Water is a start.

Sweat is a good addition. So, what type of exercise do you do -- anything that will get you sweating will be good.

Next, do you have access to a sauna -- heat and sweating, while drinking lots of water will help.

Among vitamin suggestions, and I don't sell it, is L Phenylalanine in large doses -- at least 1,000 mg per day. See if you can find some in a health food store. Normally it will be in smaller doses, get whatever you can afford, but take 1,000 mg per day for a few days, along with lots of water and let me know if that is helping.

Hi, I've been off of Effexor for three years. I ran a half hour a day
four days a week until last May when, unfortunately, I agreed to go on
Zoloft to see if it would alleviate the symptoms I spoke of.

The second day I was on it something popped n my head and my body and brain went numb and I was worse than before. I am scheduled for a PET scan in March to look for signs of stroke. I had an EEG done that showed slowing in my brain.

I fear that there is some permanent damage. I will take your advice and try to get some exercise and drinking more water is no problem.

Tomorrow, I'll check on the phenylalanine at the health food store.

Thanks,

Mike

Karl

Karl, that's interesting.

I have a friend, John, who I really felt uncomfortable around. Every time I would tell him my feelings he would say I had a problem with my brain.

I wanted to quit a high paying job and they suggested I see a counselor. I told her all my feelings about life, work, etc. and about anxiety I felt. She sent me to a psychiatrist who put me on the drug, Effexor. And life really got easy, but I realized they were lobotomizing me.

I told the doctor that it took away my sex drive and feelings and he kept talking me into taking it. Today, he refuses that it was the drug.

Anyway, I was drug free from 97 to May 99 when I told John that I was dead and alive at the same time and had been since Effexor. I again saw the counselor and told her the drug changed me. She denies it to this day that there is any info on the ills of these drugs and refuses to accept info I want to give her.

It amazes me how the psychiatrist and the counselor have convinced my family that what happened to me is my fault and they want me to believe the same. On a side note, I briefly went to a day program (necessary to get disability) after the "stroke" and it was a shame to see how they drug those people. I didn't take their medicine and fought their ideas. Needless to say I didn't fit in and didn't last long.

Anyway in back in May 99, after continuously telling John what was wrong since Effexor, I took Zoloft because, in part, he said I needed help for my imbalance. He kept saying that it was my belief that something was wrong that was making it happen. That it was not real. I took it and had the stroke-like effect. So today, I am even worse and the same guy says I'm creating it in my mind and I get similar feedback from other friends and family, none of which have ever taken these drugs so they really can't see what I'm talking about. It truly is disheartening that I look to the people who were closest to me to defend me and they really don't care. I think they are blinded by the "professionals". Thanks a lot for listening.

Mike

Dear Mike,

I haven't asked you, and you haven't said, but I sure hope you are no longer on Zoloft??

If so, I would insist that you go to whatever doctor put you on that and demand that you be helped in getting off. If you are on it, and he won't help, then you must find some medical doctor who will either help you, himself, or be willing to listen to my advice.

What I've told you, so far, is an excellent start in getting off ANY drug, but there much more I can help with.

The point is, though, that as long as you are connected to those people who want to keep you on drugs, you will continue to suffer.

You told me just enough about John.

Now, I'm going to tell you a great deal about John, who I have not met, and about whom I only know what is written above.

These will be the characteristics of ANYONE who is causing you to feel depressed -- depression is NOT a chemical thing. It is CAUSED by persons around you, probably like John.

Here is what they do to you.

First, they pretend to be a good friend, even to love you, but when you understand them, you would want their friendship like you would want that of a snake!
Only YOU can decide who such a person might be, around you. I can suggest it might be John, but if that doesn't indicate as correct to YOU, then it is not correct.
This person, whoever he or she is, will do two main things that ruin you:
They will tell you what to think about yourself and life. The truth is that sanity comes only from making up your own mind -- not accepting someone else's evaluation about you. When someone says "you are a mixed up kid" or whatever, they are "evaluating" for you and when you accept someone else's evaluation, you go down the drain. This would be particularly true when that "someone" is an authority figure, like a psychiatrist. They are the worst! They sound sincere. You think "he must know -- after all he is a doctor." They do not know. They don't have a clue about the mind. Your problems come from the one or few who are close to you and who evaluate for you and tell you what to think about yourself. I'll write later about what to do about them, but you must first identify that some such exist!
Next, these people will make less of you. They tell you that something you are proud of is of little importance. This is the little boy, proud of drawing a face, comes beaming into his mother and she say, "Johnny, you don't have the nose right!" End of creativity for Johnny! These people put you down. No matter what you do, they have something negative to say. Mike, you look around and tell me if you don't have some of this type around you.
There are another dozen characteristics of this person who is pushing you into the mud. I know how to spot them.
See if you can, already, identify someone, or a few, who do this to you.
Your "stress" started some years ago? Well, at work there was probably someone like this too. "STRESS" is NEVER a chemical imbalance -- it is caused very clearly by one person, or a few, who do what I've described above, or one of a few other actions.
Perhaps you will identify someone (John?) and then tell me more about that person.
I leave to you, Mike, whether you want to write using real names or not, and you are welcome to point others to this web site. I can handle some of these without getting stressed.

Well, enough for now. I'll rush off on an errand, and get this published at the same time as I send this latest message, at 6 PM, Thursday, February 24, 2000.

Regards,

Karl

February 25, 2000

Karl,

I agree with what you're saying. Unfortunately, having acquired such wisdom is for naught as I no longer am an emotional being, I am more of a machine than man. Perhaps, one day by the grace of god, I will be able to feel again and use this knowledge to form more positive relationships.

I am no longer on Zoloft. I was only on it for several days. I'll talk to you soon.

Mike

Dear Mike

Great! Let me hear from you soon.

But, let me ask a question.

This is actually a series of questions, but I would like to ask just the first one and get an answer, then I'll ask the next.

So, there is a discipline here -- if I ask, I hope for an answer, and won't go on to the next item until I get that answer.

Would you say that these psychiatric drug experiences have ruined your life?

It would be a yes or no.

And, I'm still waiting for your comments on WHO in your life might have treated you as I described in my last letter.

So, let me hear from you.

Karl

February 25, 2000

Hi Karl, I'm reading your website. Pretty interesting stuff.

Yes, I would say psychiatry ruined my life. Actually, I equate it with the murder of the soul and self since they have damaged my brain where the seat of consciousness resides. As far as who was the person in my life who steered me towards psychiatric drugs I would have to say the counselor with whom I had therapy.

They offered artificial friendship and compassion. Once I established a bond emotionally and told them my fears, worries, and anxieties I was talked into believing that it a chemical imbalance was the source of my woes and drugs were presented as the solution.

Mike

Dear Mike,

Thanks for the response.

Do I understand, however, that it was your employer that suggested you see the counselor?

And John who evaluated for you?

The psychiatrist is late on the chain. His only business is to do what he does -- to harm people. He mostly uses drugs to do that. That is all he knows how to do. The word "psyche" means "soul" in Greek, and originally the "psychiatrist" was to be the person who "healed" the "soul." Psychiatrists haven't the slightest clue about "soul" and believe that man arose from the mud. Whether they will admit it or not, they normally have no God in their life, and do not believe in "soul" but only in chemically caused problems in the brain!

But, before you could get into his clutches, there were others pushing you in that direction, not so?

The therapist, too, just doing her thing. They all do the same -- the tell you what to think about yourself and put you down. They never solve your problems, so they push you on to the next person, the psychiatrist.

Of course you were betrayed by them, but that is what they do. It would be John, or your employer, or perhaps another, who you considered a "friend" who suggested you needed "help" and suggested "therapy."

That is a slippery road to hell!

So, you have already answered, in the response above, the next question i was going to ask: "What has been the effect of this ruin of your life?"

Now, the next question is this, "Can this situation you are now in -- murdered soul, etc. -- get worse? Do you have any fear or consideration that this situation could get worse?" In other words, whatever condition you are in now, no longer on these drugs, has some description. Do you think this condition will get better, all by itself, or stay the same, or could it possibly get worse?

Now, how are you doing on water and exercise?

And, incidentally, I'm going out of town for a few days, leaving Monday, so I won't be responding to messages during that time. I'll answer anything you've sent when I get back.

Regards,

Karl

February 25, 2000

Karl,

Something I left out is this. Growing up, my mother had many nervous breakdowns and was labeled as schizophrenic.

In my teenage years, although I was relatively popular, I was deeply ashamed of her and feared that my peers would find out.

I started having nightmares abut her which led to me avoiding people and finally fearing that I would inherit her illness.

When I told people of my shame and anxiety, I think it was always assumed that I was just going to end up like my mom. I spent most of my twenties fearing I was crazy, although outwardly I was successful. I went to a therapist, a man, at this time, also, to see if I could shed some of these irrational thoughts that were affecting my self esteem, etc.

I spent several years in therapy and it only got worse.

At that time, mid twenties, I tried a drug, imipramine, for a short time. My therapist said it would give me "psychological space". The side effects were awful and I discontinued after a month or so before much damage could be done to me. It would be five years or so before I would take Effexor that would damage me.

I do not think my present condition will get better. I have tried seeing a naturalist, tried supplements, etc. all to no avail. I think it could get worse if I ever took any more drugs. I could possibly lose my ability to communicate. Also, I fear that it could get worse if I was to take my life to end this state. There is always the possibility of punishment for that deed.

I am drinking the water. I don't know if I will start exercising or not because, frankly, it is rather odd being outside in a world that I know has many qualities besides the perception of the purely physical, yet I only experience what I sense, no beauty, no nice cars, no attractive women, no good smells or tastes, no humor, no life. No emotion, feeling, perception, or intuition. Just solid concrete flatness. It is easier to stay inside and where I can avoid contact with others (I live in a small town) who will surely notice that the person they knew is absent. And I will know it also which is too much to handle.

Mike

Dear Mike,

Thanks for answering the question. Your answer was that it could get worse.

The next question is, do you sense any need of change? Or, is it OK for things to stay the way they are?

On the water? How much? I encourage you to drink at least one gallon per day, in small sips all through the day. Let me know.

Exercise? It is important, but there are many exercises you can do inside -- all the sit-ups, push-ups, "abs-roller" etc. One of the best, if you can find one within your budget, is the "mini-trampoline." This is about 4 feet in diameter. You get on it and bounce.

If you get one, or have one, let me know and I'll give some advice on how to use it.

But, even without a trampoline, there is much you can do inside.

My help to you, Mike, if it is any help at all, will only be to suggest things -- it is up to you to do them, or not.

If you had really good friend, close, he or she might be able to give you this same advice and it might be easier to do these things with someone close. But, you can do what you can do.

Another thing. I don't think I've heard much of the answer, yet, as to who around you is putting you down. Is it John? someone else?

Let me tell you another thing about whoever that person is. Remember, this is HIS or HER characteristic -- something you can look for in the person who I suggest is bad news for you.

This person, you will observe, starts things and doesn't finish them.

We might all do this, from time to time, but I'm talking about doing this all the time. If someone has that characteristic, AND is also telling you what to think about yourself, and putting you down, these three characteristics are lining up to prove that guy bad news!

Well?

Regards,

Karl

February 25. 2000

Loren,

Hi, yes, I sense an extreme need to change. I don't think I can tolerate this for any extended period of time, but I try. Unfortunately, if it is a case of brain damage as I suspect, there may be little change that I can effect.

On the topic of the person in my life, there really isn't any at this point. I spend almost all my time at home where my mom takes care of me and she has been very supportive. In fact, I am probably hanging in there more for her then myself. However, before Effexor I had a few "friends" that fit the bill of which you speak.

I had several genuinely good friends until May and the "stroke", but now I don't really talk to anyone. People get tired of hearing someone complain such as I tend to do when in others company. But I need help and there really is none to be had.

I drank about a half gallon of water today. Tomorrow, I'll drink more than that.

Regards,

Mike

Dear Mike,

Good!

On the water, I may have already written it (I usually don't go back, even on the web page, to see what I've already written, or you have -- I respond to what is in front of me), but . . .

A good book for this is "The Body's Many Cries For Water," in most health food stores. I also have 60 pages on one of my web sites as to why people should drink more water:

http://www.oralchelation.net/heartdisease/ChapterSixteen/page16.htm

Read and enjoy! I encourage you to drink 2 to 4 ounces at a time -- all during the day. If you drink 8 or more ounces at one time, it moves through you without getting much of the "flushing" action that will be useful in removing drug residues.

Exercise? I didn't see a comment there?

Need to change? Yes? Great.

Next question: "Do you feel a demand for improvement in your life?"

A "need of change" is different from a "demand for improvement." One can be rather casual, the later is rather intense.

Demand?

Let me give you an example how someone can be harmful to you by evaluating.

You have written about "brain damage." You notice I have not commented on that.

I could say, "Oh, Mike, you shouldn't worry about brain damage!" Or, I could say, "Oh Mike, that's a serious concern, you should probably see a doctor!"

Or, I could say anything. The point here is that I do NOT evaluate for you and tell you what you should think on things. If you want to worry about that, or have it looked at, or forget it, those are your decisions.

So, beware people who tell you what to think.

But, on the other hand, if you are eating food, someone has to pay for that, and if you are not paying for it, there is a situation there that needs change. If mom wants to support you, and you have some sort of income, that might be all that is needed, but from time to time here I might ask you what you can contribute to your survival in some situation.

But, on to "friends." When you say that you used to have "friends" that "fit the bill," I assume you mean that you knew people that were invalidating you or evaluating for you?

But, none around now?

As you are already at the point of "needing change" it is important that there should not be people who will be putting you down. The past is the past -- you "change" now, in present time.

So, to recap:

1. Demand for improvement?

2. Exercise? Even sweat? (but do it on a gradient -- a little to start and then more) The Canadian motto for exercise: "A moderate beginning with a gradual increase!"

3. Exchange with those who support you?

4. Have you found any Phenylalanine? Taking any?

Regards,

Karl

February 26, 2000

Hi Loren,

No, I don't feel a demand for change. I believe my chemistry has been changed to where I can't experience desires or needs. But intellectually I wish it would change. Hope that made sense.

It will be a great effort to exercise, but perhaps tomorrow I will walk to the health food store.

I'm on disability and contribute financially for food, etc. I could do more though.

Phenylalanine. I'm doing some reading on this now. I get an adverse reaction to aspartame which contains phenylalanine so I am a bit leery of taking it. What does it do? I know it is a precursor to tyrosine which forms dopamine and norepinephrin. I am taking some tyrosine until I get to the store. I think it is making me crampy and pressure in the head, but that may be the water, who knows.

Regards,

Mike

Dear Mike,

Thanks for the response.

We come to a phase in my help where some "DOING" is necessary. Whatever help I might be able to give you has started with talk (writing), but we have reached a point where you must do something. I cannot do it for you.

Water.

Exercise.

The phenylalanine? That is not my requirement, but only my suggestion.

I don't believe that phenylalanine will be harmful for you, but you should still test it in whatever way you are comfortable.

I don't believe you can overcome the results of drugs just through talk, or thinking -- the drugs are in your system -- that is one of the evils of psychiatric drugs. They get stored in your body, in the fat tissues, and they "leak" out every once in a while -- causing a drug reaction. That is what a "flash back" is, as from LSD.

In order for me to be of any further help, I need to hear from you about some extended period of exercise. The water goes along with diet. I've not asked you about diet, and perhaps you can fill me in on that? I sense that you are already on a good diet? Not high in carbohydrates, little or no sugar?

There is no hurry as far as I am concerned, but start giving me a daily or weekly report, as you wish, about your exercise for a period. It would be good to keep a daily written record of the type of exercise and the amount of time on each type.

Let me know.

Regards,

Karl

February 27, 1000

Hi Karl,

I'm drinking about a gallon of water a day. I also started walking a few miles the last several days. My diet consists of milk, eggs, meat, and carbs. Talk to you soon.

Regards,

Dear Mike,

Great!

The water? Small amounts, often?

The exercise? Great. Be sure to do only so much that you can keep it up the next day, and gradually increase the amount.

I allow my dogs to take me on a walk -- up the hill about a mile, sit a bit, back down -- a pleasant hour.

Let me know.

Karl

My Routine eMail Message To Those Who Tell Me They Are On Prozac, or Any Other Anti-depressants, is to send them entire page as you find on this link.

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Mike's Personal Struggle A Story From Karl Loren

My Routine eMail Message To Those Who Tell Me They Are On Prozac, or Any Other Anti-depressants, is to send them entire page as you find on this link.

Mike's Personal Struggle
A Story From
Karl Loren